— The reason lots of shows [in Britain] are derived from books is because a lot of broadcasters are very risk averse. They want to know that there's been some market testing before they commit to putting any money into it. [But in the case of Rastamouse story], the publishers didn’t engage with it either because they’re risk averse, too. So, the authors self-published and made those books a success themselves. De Souza and Webster went round local bookshops in Notting Hill and drove the popularity of that book, and eventually the books got into more mainstream stores.

For me, Rastamouse’s books were distinctive and different - and if you're trying to place something in the market, you've got to have something that will stand out from the crowd. It had all those elements and as well as having this like absolutely joyful energy to it. Whereas from a public service broadcast point of view, what you want to do is represent as much and as many of your audiences as possible. That's your job. That's your one job: to be representative of reflective of the whole of the country. The BBC didn't have a show that did that and so they were into it. 

When Rastamouse hit the squeeze, it blew up in the media… There was a load of licensing activity, which is really unusual in that early in a show's lifetime. They [even] did Rastamouse and the Easy Crew did Glastonbury… and a CBeebies live event. Alongside all of that, Three Stones Media initiated a music education programme using Rastamouse as a vehicle with EMI Publishing and EMI's music charity. In a 12-week course… [four and five-year-olds] would learn to play an instrument and perform some Easy Crew numbers.

De Souza and Webster were all brilliant because they got the books to a certain degree of popularity and there was word of mouth going around. They were doing readings, but they carried on when the show was made as well. So, de Soouza and Webster, they deserve a lot of kudos for building the book as far as they did under their own steam.

— In the books, speech is written in a rhyme, which speaks of the patois. You can't hear them speak, but I've heard loads of people read books to their kids and they all have a go…. So, the start of the voice of the show came directly from the books. I think the rhythm, not always the rhyme, of the books stayed in the series because it was part of the energy of it. Anybody that works in international distribution will tell you, you can't have a rhyme because it doesn’t always translate. So, that's why there's not always got the absolute poetry rhythm of the books, but there is a rhythm that carries through the show, which is an important part of the translation. There hadn't been anything like Rastamouse before in British children's cartooning. I think its presence, on screens, was a great and new and celebratory thing… because the producers took care to retain the intentions and the authenticity of the original material; the TV show is faithful to books. That's something that doesn't happen very often and is unusual in lots of different ways.

The BBC felt the… imperative of the show was really clear and that it was distinct from other shows. But they wanted us to think about another way of looking at it, even though Webster’s work, visual work was lovely. It was reminiscent of Maisy Mouse which hadn't been a series of that had been produced not that many years before. Animation director Derek Mogford, who I knew from the years as the animation director, made a 3D stop motion puppet of Rastamouse after he'd engaged with the Rastamouse creators alongside creative consultants from Three Stones Media (Greg and Eugenio) and myself.  Derek Mogford's genius of combining the two came from his [previous] work… that 3D character and 2D world (the elements, the houses, the props) worked beautifully because it enabled the retention of some of those illustrative elements of Webster’s work.

Diversity in the television and broadcast world - it's never been diverse, has it? It's very middle, upper, middle class orientated, white male dominated. Children's [programming] is a bit different actually, because it's mostly white women, middle or upper class dominated, and there are a few men involved in children's TV because it's children's. You would never see many black faces either in production companies or broadcasters. But it's changing, just not very quickly - there's a lot of initiatives happening. So, finding people with an authentic voice to tell stories was a problem, and the production crew; that was a bigger problem. Creative Consultant, Greg Boardman, was really instrumental in bringing people across from other [writing] sectors into the room and then having a couple of experienced hands that would go right, this is how we do preschool…So there'd be a level of authenticity in the voices that were telling the stories.

—I think what British animation means is can be lots of things to lots of people, can't it? But for me, with my public service broadcast, you’re telling British stories or you are exhibiting quirky British eccentric sense of humour, or something that speaks of our country. Rastamouse is set in Mouseland, which is in a shape of a chunk of cheddar cheese… It could be it is its own place, but it resembles many different places…. in my mind, Rastamouse was always set on a Notting Hill on sea… That’s what de Souza and Webster were speaking about in their books; they wanted to project as their local [West London] community… a part of our society that is maybe not seen on everyday tv…It's important because if you're not having programmes telling your stories, representing who you are, what does it say? By showing different lives, different communities, different voices to children, I think helps them embrace others.

There was some blowback as well, because there were people that might have been cast in this role that felt that they were more authentic to, say, the Caribbean. But that wasn't the intention. Casting was about the energy the voice actors brought to… being a part of a community - like Notting Hill on Sea. You can get into a very pedantic area of where that actor’s grandparent was born… Some commentators did get into that area, but they missed the point. We had a lot of really positive appreciation. But we also had some people were quite against it. I had to go on the Victoria Derbyshire radio show and defend it… with de Souza and Webster.

People did have those, they're not speaking proper English complaints…I had lots of those letters… people's concerns are always real. So, you've got to respectfully answer them. We did have a lot of input from child speech and language therapists; the biggest determinant of a child’s speech is their parents and their family environment. I would say we were always pure in terms of trying to represent a particular, joyful, of West London community. We're authentic to the source material and they were authentic to that community… everybody was trying to do the right thing. Bizarrely, concerns about the depiction of Rastafarianism was never a complaint we got. There were also questions about the stereotyping of black males… [and] is cheese a metaphor for weed? No, it's not. It's cheese. But the language thing was people’s biggest concern.

At that time… CBeebies linear digital channel and views were between 500,000 and 600,000 an episode for Rastamouse. Viewership on CBeebies is a 10th of that now …The complaints were in the hundreds, not the thousands… but there were far, far more appreciations of the show from all over the place than not. I think it's the job of the BBC… is to represent all of us and it was the BBC doing its job commissioning that show and supporting it.

—You can play with reality to make a point and that's why I think, animation is hugely popular with preschool audiences because it's colourful, it's vibrant, but you can pack a real educational, social, emotional tension to the storytelling event. Even if you've got a bit of fantasy in an otherwise real world, there's a reality to that world and it's got rules.

I think kids' brains and opinions, are forming so quickly - they're sponges, they will absorb everything they're seeing and hearing. So, we need to put some guardrails on about what is good, nice, polite. So, this was one of my most interesting episodes because it was about that American director saying what is and what isn't allowed. Of course, Bagga T ends up getting a role in the end, so it's okay. But Cornell's Shakespearean bit at the start of it is what we all expect from dramatic theatre or film. It's, RP [received pronunciation - an old English accent we associate and expect from Shakespearean plays]. But it was an interesting question to pose to little kids.

—I think Rastamouse was was a bit of a trailblazer because I can't think of another show that was overtly representing the voices of a sector of our community in the way that it did. There are things that have come along later that have been brilliant… You start realizing that, my story can be told; my experiences can do it. So, I think it was a game changer in that regard. It made people believe they can tell their stories, and hear their voices. I think it brought a new gang of people into the business that have had success or have gone on to work in different parts of the business… like JoJo Gran Gran and other shows like that - Laura (JoJo & Gran Gran’s creator) worked on Rastamouse. But Rastamouse enabled people to know they can be part of the media; that they can be part of TV.

When Kay left and then I left, I think the present incumbents in the BBC decided to stop relicensing Rastamouse… I don't understand it, because in terms of, celebrating all of the audiences, I don't think buying SpongeBob SquarePants, Winx Club, or Coco Melon is an adequate replacement for it in a public service broadcaster. But that's what's on CBeebies now instead of Rastamouse. When certain TV shows don't get relicensed, that's it, they don't get shown anywhere. I think there's not many shows that could resurface years later, but I do think there's a timelessness to Rastamouse. I think because of the quality of the production and its intentions it still stands the test of time, more than many others.…If it was in my power, I'd re-licence it back to the BBC immediately.